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Jimmy Johnson: Draft Master?


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#21 kskboys

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 05:04 PM

Even without a first round pick, you have to come away with something when you have 12 picks. Has anyone ever heard of a special teams draft until 2009? That was actually as bad as it gets in the war room. The Roy Williams trade, the galloway trade... there are a number of moves that should've never happened cause this team would be in much better shape over the past decade without those decisions.

And don't forget that our Oline didn't play well down the stretch and Flo had shown all the signs of a declining player. If we had just taken one OL that worked out, the draft would've been OK.

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#22 diehardblues

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 06:36 PM

Jimmy also had the backing of an almost unlimited bank account in Jerry. Back then trades could be made and players signed without the worry of the salary cap. Also, you could keep guys longer because there was no free agency.

With parody came mediocrity. You'll never see anything like what Jimmy and Jerry were able to accomplish.

I'd say the Pats have.

   

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#23 diehardblues

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 06:53 PM

I disagree, but just a little bit. The true gems were the O and Dliners we drafted who were instrumental in our super bowl wins. I do not think that JJ has tried to do what he did to win 3 super bowls. Go back and look how many trench people we took in the 1st 4 rounds.

I know. That's the one area we butt heads on. You have a bigger priority on the OL and I have one on the key positions. It has to be a mixture of both of course and a difference of opinion which is more important .

Pure speculation on just the offense but maybe anyone would have won 3 Super Bowls behind that OL. IDK? Maybe we didn't need the likes of the Tripletts. It's not what I believe but I suppose one could make an argument for it. I don't want to discount the importance of an OL just prioritize.

   

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#24 crouchinmonkeyhiddenmonkey

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 07:12 PM

Yeah the 2009 draft can be blamed on Jerry.


But then you have to give him credit for the '10,'11, & '12 drafts. Those ones brought in some good young talent

9RUgY.gif"But if I were still coaching today, I'd want Tony Romo to be my quarterback. I know everybody is down on him right now, but I AM 100% SURE HE CAN BE A BIG WINNER IN THIS LEAGUE. " "Absolutely no doubt in my mind you can win what you want to win with Tony. He'd be my quarterback."


-Jimmy Johnsonkate-gq-6.gif?w=500&h=341


#25 kskboys

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 07:49 PM

I know. That's the one area we butt heads on. You have a bigger priority on the OL and I have one on the key positions. It has to be a mixture of both of course and a difference of opinion which is more important .

Pure speculation on just the offense but maybe anyone would have won 3 Super Bowls behind that OL. IDK? Maybe we didn't need the likes of the Tripletts. It's not what I believe but I suppose one could make an argument for it. I don't want to discount the importance of ak n OL just prioritize.

3 most important areas on the team: 1. QB 2/3: OL and DL.

Greg, look back at the super bowl winners, and you'll see how important these areas are. You align your beliefs w/ JJ.

My doctor told me to start killing people.   Well, not  in those exact words.   He said I had to reduce the stress in my life.    Same thing, really. 


#26 diehardblues

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 08:00 PM

3 most important areas on the team: 1. QB 2/3: OL and DL.

Greg, look back at the super bowl winners, and you'll see how important these areas are. You align your beliefs w/ JJ.

I agree more about the DL...and to some degree I do with Jerry. Where he has missed though is duplicating the talent or even coming close to it and why we have failed or at least not come closer.

The 2/3 rds part I agree but is also a concern for us but we won't go there today. I think we are closer in our thoughts than differ though. Not most of the elite OL make the playoffs but the QB's do.

   

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#27 king of cowboy fans n.j.

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 08:07 PM

I MUST ADMIT I HAD A STRONG DISLIKE FOR JERRY AS SOON AS HE BOUGHT THE TEAM, AFTER ALL HIS FIRST OFFICIAL ACT AS OWNER WAS FIRING TOM LANDRY. I DONT CARE WHO YOU ARE OR HOW MUCH MONEY YOU HAVE,YOU DO NOT FIRE TOM LANDRY. YOU GIVE HIM A CHANCE TO "RETIRE' OR "STEP DOWN" BUT YOU DONT FIRE THE GREATEST COACH THAT EVER COACHED. MAYBE SOME OF YOU YOUNGER GUYS DONT REMEMBER THIS BUT LANDRY HAD SIGNED A NEW 3 YR CONTRACT AND YES,THE BOYS WEREN'T DOING SO GREAT AT THE TIME. BUT LIKE COACH SAID "WE ARE IN THE SECOND YEAR OF A REBUILDING PROCESS. I WILL ADMIT, THAT THE SIGNING OF JIMMY JOHNSON TURNED OUT TO BE A GREAT THING,HE MADE US WINNERS AGAIN. BUT NOT IN HIS FIRST YEAR, SO WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN WRONG WITH LETTING COACH LANDRY FINISH HIS TIME? THAT WILL ALWAYS BE THE KNOCK AGAINST JERRY AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED

#28 diehardblues

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 08:23 PM

I MUST ADMIT I HAD A STRONG DISLIKE FOR JERRY AS SOON AS HE BOUGHT THE TEAM, AFTER ALL HIS FIRST OFFICIAL ACT AS OWNER WAS FIRING TOM LANDRY. I DONT CARE WHO YOU ARE OR HOW MUCH MONEY YOU HAVE,YOU DO NOT FIRE TOM LANDRY. YOU GIVE HIM A CHANCE TO "RETIRE' OR "STEP DOWN" BUT YOU DONT FIRE THE GREATEST COACH THAT EVER COACHED. MAYBE SOME OF YOU YOUNGER GUYS DONT REMEMBER THIS BUT LANDRY HAD SIGNED A NEW 3 YR CONTRACT AND YES,THE BOYS WEREN'T DOING SO GREAT AT THE TIME. BUT LIKE COACH SAID "WE ARE IN THE SECOND YEAR OF A REBUILDING PROCESS. I WILL ADMIT, THAT THE SIGNING OF JIMMY JOHNSON TURNED OUT TO BE A GREAT THING,HE MADE US WINNERS AGAIN. BUT NOT IN HIS FIRST YEAR, SO WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN WRONG WITH LETTING COACH LANDRY FINISH HIS TIME? THAT WILL ALWAYS BE THE KNOCK AGAINST JERRY AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED

It wasn't an option.Tex on the other hand did stay on a awhile before he retired. Jerry and Tom would have never worked anyway.There's really no good way to fire a legend if he's not ready to step down.

   

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#29 BlueSmoke

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 01:58 AM

It wasn't an option.Tex on the other hand did stay on a awhile before he retired. Jerry and Tom would have never worked anyway.There's really no good way to fire a legend if he's not ready to step down.


Sure there is. Play to his ego. You know that old saying you catch more flies with honey.
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#30 D'Love

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 01:25 PM

I think Johnson's record speaks for itself- the Hershell Walker trade will go down as one of the NFL's biggest blockbusters- other teams have gotten deals like this, & it never amounted to a hill of beans..................

I agree that his record will speak for itself. And the Walker trade WILL remain the best ever because NOBODY has ever made such a trade since. However, many people attribute it all to Jimmy, or want to attribute it all to Jerry, when in fact they BOTH worked that trade to pure genius. Neither of them "came up with the idea", as Art Model of the Browns called with a package offer to start it. Jerry is the one I've read that had the idea to shop it to another player (MIN) to sweeten the deal. Jimmy, I understand was the one with the idea to attach a draft pick to each player they received in the trade (that's the part you haven't seen in any of the so-called similar trades) and meticulously worked to rid himself of most of those players in order to collect the picks. But, the trade would have not gone through at all, if Jerry hadn't negotiated effectively with Walker himself to allow it. And say what you want about the actual drafting of players, but TOGETHER, they made 16 draft picks in the first 3 rounds during 1990, 1991, and 1992 as opposed to 9 BECAUSE of the work they both did in that trade. So, the idea wasn't either of theirs and they BOTH played major roles in turning it into what it became.
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#31 D'Love

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 01:31 PM

I think you did a great job. Yeah, Jimmy is glorified by most Cowboy fans. I thought he was good, not great.

You also have to consider he caught lightening in a bottle w/ Haley, was going to trade Irvin and didn't, and drafted a LB in the 2nd who turned out to be one of the best S's to ever play the game in Woodson. Did he intend on switching Tuinei to O, or was that yet another lucky stroke? Lotsa things fell in the right place, but since we got 3 super bowls out of it, I tend not to care who gets what credit, I'm just ecstatic that we won!!!

Tuinei began starting at LT in 1986, four years after joining the team undrafted, but four years before Jimmy came to Dallas. I think you were referring to someone else, maybe Rayfield Wright?
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#32 D'Love

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 02:09 PM

The Cowboys of the 90s were really all about the Herschel Walker trade and the current Cowboys are all about the Roy Williams trade.

Every team at least drafts some good players. When you have as many picks as we had from the Herschel Walker trade, you get a lot of chances to find great players. We did good things outside of that trade, but like I said, every team does. Look at the Lions of the 90s. Barry Sanders and Herman Moore? Can't say I wouldn't like to have those kind of players on my team. Still, they didn't have a complete team, and that's why they were unsuccessful.

Most of our recent drafts have netted some good players. The big hole in our drafting was the 2009 draft, where we traded our 1st, 3rd, and 6th round picks to the Lions for Roy Williams. That completely change our draft philosophy. Since we didn't have the ammo to go get good players, we decided to use our remaining picks on special teams players. That didn't work out so well.

If we had our 1st round pick back from 2009, we would have had the 20th pick in the first round. We could have drafted Alex Mack, who the Browns selected with the 22nd overall pick. Alex Mack is the Browns center and he's been to the pro bowl. If we still wanted a WR, we could have taken Hakeem Nicks or Percy Harvin. Harvin might not seem like much value now that he's been struggling with injuries, but injuries can be a wrong place at the wrong time thing. If we took a WR in the 2009 draft, that would free us up to take Devin McCourty in 2010. McCourty has made the Pro Bowl playing CB, which means last year our secondary wouldn't have been such a disaster. It also would have meant we wouldn't have needed to sign Brandon Carr this year, which sets us up to sign Carl Nicks. And this is all just if we had that 2009 1st round pick. With the other picks we gave up, we might have gotten something too.

I can see where you would think these things, but disagree with most of them.

For one, the WR issues began much earlier than Roy Williams. After having not made a push to draft a WR in the first two rounds since Kevin Williams in 1993 and feeling they MAY have made the mistake of passing on Moss in 1998, the organization signed Rocket Ismail to complement Irvin. It worked really well and the two were having a great season in 1999, until Mike went down with that neck injury and didn't return due to the condition he discovered as a result. With Aikman's window closing they chased the WR position by trading two 1st for Galloway. Many think that was an awful trade, but I still feel it was the right thing to do and at the right price. You can't predict you'd lose the guy in the first game and that Aikman wouldn't return by the time he got healthy. Without a great QB, his numbers didn't look so well, making the trade look bad. Ismail's numbers weren't great, either and then HE got hurt. Chasing WRs with WRs, you get into a mess of one early draft pick (Antonio Bryant, who was better than most) and a Free Agent/Trade train of Glenn, Johnson, Morgan, Price, Owens, Williams with Crayton's surprise contribution from a 6th-rounder thrown in. Each season's free agent/trade WR solution gave the false sense that the position was fixed, so they still didn't draft a real WR until Dez.

And having that first back, you really think that the organization that had previously only used one 1st-rounder on an OL player would take a center while their current center just went to his third consecutive Pro-Bowl in only his 7th season? He wasn't quite "old" yet. If we wanted to play "coulda-shoulda", I was BUGGING to take Dewayne Bowe with #22 in 2007 rather than trading out and then back up to get Spencer. How would THAT have changed the 2009 decision to trade for Roy?
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#33 D'Love

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 02:28 PM

As far as the Galloway trade, I agree that it really hurt us, but I think it had a bigger impact on how well the team was under Parcells. Those players we would have drafted then, by now would be on the down side of their careers at best. Still, we might have actually been able to do something special under Parcells had we not wrecked the team before he had a chance to fix it.

I think that the worse decision than the Galloway trade, itself, was the way the following season was handled without the first. I mean, you draft Carter to be the future QB, but you brought in a mediocre veteran to hold things down for you while he learns. Carter proved in 2003 that with a great defense and some time to learn, he could have been good enough to win games, had he just not been a druggie. But instead, they can Tony Banks and throw Carter to the wolves. No wonder he hit the pipe. I don't know, I'm just making that up, really. But who really knows? Could Carter have stayed clean and progressed into good enough? It's irrelevant because the team had gaping holes in the secondary, receiving corp, o-line, d-line and QB and they couldn't plug them all up, even with those two firsts.
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#34 D'Love

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 02:40 PM

I MUST ADMIT I HAD A STRONG DISLIKE FOR JERRY AS SOON AS HE BOUGHT THE TEAM, AFTER ALL HIS FIRST OFFICIAL ACT AS OWNER WAS FIRING TOM LANDRY. I DONT CARE WHO YOU ARE OR HOW MUCH MONEY YOU HAVE,YOU DO NOT FIRE TOM LANDRY. YOU GIVE HIM A CHANCE TO "RETIRE' OR "STEP DOWN" BUT YOU DONT FIRE THE GREATEST COACH THAT EVER COACHED. MAYBE SOME OF YOU YOUNGER GUYS DONT REMEMBER THIS BUT LANDRY HAD SIGNED A NEW 3 YR CONTRACT AND YES,THE BOYS WEREN'T DOING SO GREAT AT THE TIME. BUT LIKE COACH SAID "WE ARE IN THE SECOND YEAR OF A REBUILDING PROCESS. I WILL ADMIT, THAT THE SIGNING OF JIMMY JOHNSON TURNED OUT TO BE A GREAT THING,HE MADE US WINNERS AGAIN. BUT NOT IN HIS FIRST YEAR, SO WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN WRONG WITH LETTING COACH LANDRY FINISH HIS TIME? THAT WILL ALWAYS BE THE KNOCK AGAINST JERRY AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED

Three things about that, that you should understand. First, Jerry was chosen over two other candidates to buy the team because he was the only one that promised he'd bring in his own coach. Bum Bright wanted Landry and Shramm gone and was too big of a wuss to fire either of them, himself, so he sold the team to someone that would. Second, Bum never told anytone he was even looking to sell the team, so the shock of even being in jeopardy of losing his job was on Bum, not Jerry. As pointed out by Drew Pearson in "A Football Life" it was really Bright's place, not Jerry's. And third, Jerry didn't intend for the media to be the one to break the news to Landry (which was the biggest stink of it all). The whole thing was secret and one reporter saw he and Jimmy in town, followed them and "front-paged" it before Jerry had the chance to sit down with Landry, professionally, to allow him the dignity of announcing his own retirement, etc. Jerry's biggest blunder in that deal is when the media bombarded him right after signing the papers, he was giddy (as you'd expect any fan to be after just purchasing a team) and it was obvious to everyone, even though the business of Landry hadn't yet been handled. So, there he is with Jimmy, both of them grinning ear-to-ear, on TV, in the papers, etc., as the new structure of the franchise while a legend is technically still on payroll.
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#35 kskboys

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 02:57 PM

I agree more about the DL...and to some degree I do with Jerry. Where he has missed though is duplicating the talent or even coming close to it and why we have failed or at least not come closer.

The 2/3 rds part I agree but is also a concern for us but we won't go there today. I think we are closer in our thoughts than differ though. Not most of the elite OL make the playoffs but the QB's do.

Correct. The QB is far and away the most important position on the team. And that's what makes the O and Dlines up next. The Oline makes your QB effective, and the Dline neutralizes their QB. It all hinges around the middle.

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#36 kskboys

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 03:08 PM

Tuinei began starting at LT in 1986, four years after joining the team undrafted, but four years before Jimmy came to Dallas. I think you were referring to someone else, maybe Rayfield Wright?

Guess I remembered that one wrong!!

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#37 Staubach Fan

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 01:11 AM

I think you did a great job. Yeah, Jimmy is glorified by most Cowboy fans. I thought he was good, not great.

You also have to consider he caught lightening in a bottle w/ Haley, was going to trade Irvin and didn't, and drafted a LB in the 2nd who turned out to be one of the best S's to ever play the game in Woodson. Did he intend on switching Tuinei to O, or was that yet another lucky stroke? Lotsa things fell in the right place, but since we got 3 super bowls out of it, I tend not to care who gets what credit, I'm just ecstatic that we won!!!


Landry switched Tuinei to offense.

http://www.pro-footb.../T/TuinMa00.htm

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Mark_Tuinei

Jerrah and Jimmy how ever they did it worked. They were good together. Without the other one neither one did all that great.

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#38 NDQ

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:07 AM

Tuinei began starting at LT in 1986, four years after joining the team undrafted, but four years before Jimmy came to Dallas. I think you were referring to someone else, maybe Rayfield Wright?


Rayfield Wright's last season was 1979

#39 pong12211

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:55 PM

Jimmy Johnson a draft master that depends on what era of football you're talking about. I mean when Jimmy was drafting players there was no cap also his college coaching gave him a real eye for talent. Also when he came to Dallas we sucked bad. So whats he do trade our best player for other players and draft picks, because he knew one player did'nt make a team. Back then you could get away with that nowadays it would kill your franchise. Look I honestly believe that in Jimmies time he was the best eye for talent but that was a different time and a different game. I mean back when he was scouting players our team was so talented if he missed on a pick in all honesty it really did'nt hurt us. Like I said different times. Do I think Jimmie would be as succesful today I want to say yes but im not 100% sure. If you want to see a true coach with an eye for talent I hate to say it but Bill Bellichek for the Patriots is the Jimmy Johnson of the 2000's in my opinion. Those two coaches in my opinion are mirror images of each other in different decades. I will always be thankful for jimmy bringing us those 3 yes I said 3 superbowls but I don't think him and todays game would mesh. Just my opinion. As always Go Cowboys!!!

#40 lordnate

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:26 AM

I think what Jimmy did was bring accountability to the team. He was strict, hard nosed, and that was something the team really needed. We had a lot of guys who were, less than stellar characters. Not all were bad, as Troy and Emmitt were class acts. But we had some that really needed a strong coach to get the most out of them.

The real reason for the Cowboys success in the 90s however, has to be the Herschel Walker trade. When you can get that much in a trade you have a huge advantage. Jimmy didn't have the greatest success rate on his draft picks, but he sure did a lot of picking.